Why Do Men Fail At Relationships? | Jayson Gaddis | Better Man Podcast Ep. 093

Dean Pohlman: Hey guys, it’s Dean. Welcome to the Better Man podcast. Today’s episode I have on Jason Gaddis, who is a world class relationship coach and expert. really fortunate to have him on. He is the author of the book called Getting to Zero, which I have right here and have been reading for the last few days. He is also the founder of the Relationships School, which is a, incredibly comprehensive program, nine month program.

Dean Pohlman: From what I understand, to teach people how to show up better in their relationships. So, Jason, thanks for being here. This is, this is a really cool.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah. Dean, I’m psyched to be here and get into it with you, for sure.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. So, I used to be of the thought that when it came to physical health and well-being, that if you ate. Well, if you, did your exercise and if you slept well, that you would be super healthy and live forever. And then I started learning more and, realized that, that’s not the case. And that, the actual the number one factor in your overall health is the quality of your relationships.

Dean Pohlman: So, hopefully that gives you enough reason to want to pay attention to this podcast. If you’re listening and, to really start putting some more effort into relationships. So this, this conversation, you know, a lot of the betterment podcast, I do in a way that I’m trying to, I’m trying to develop myself. I’m asking questions.

Dean Pohlman: I’m having conversations that about things that I’m struggling with. And if you’re listening, I know that these are things that you guys struggle with as well. So a lot of these questions are going to be focused on things that I would ask. I’m also going to be asking questions about, men in relationships in general. And this applies to all types of relationships heteronormative as well as homosexual.

Dean Pohlman: So this is going to be something, that will apply to, hopefully a lot of you guys. And, I’m really excited to do this. Jason, do you want to just maybe introduce yourself and, you know, go into what you do and, and, what makes you really cool?

Jayson Gaddis: sure. first of all, I just want to acknowledge you for, caring that nursing and getting the health is more than just physical stuff and eating well, and that it’s that our relationships do impact that. And if guys don’t believe that, you can just Google the Harvard study on relational health. Really, longevity. So thanks for being, you know, open minded person like that.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: Because I think a lot of guys do think mean being quote, healthy means I just need to lift weights and run and do yoga and stuff.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: And yeah, that’s part of it. But, I think every guy knows if their marriage is in the shitter, they’re not probably feeling that good. so anyway. Yeah, I’m. Let’s see. What would I say about myself? I so I founded the relationship school because I got tired of complaining that there is no class in high school or college on this really vital life skill.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah.

Jayson Gaddis: And I prior to that, I was, coach and a psychotherapist. I got a master’s degree in psychology.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: Back in the early 2000. And I’m a psychology nerd. I’m a personal growth geek. I want to optimize every area of my life. but the biggest pain point in my life prior to graduate school was partnership and relationship and intimacy. I just had a lot of blocks, and I didn’t know what the hell I was doing, and I blamed all the women I dated.

Jayson Gaddis: So, you know, prior to being into personal growth, I was kind of a classic shut down dude that drank a lot and smoked a lot of weed and did a lot of drugs and blamed other people and would try to kind of, you know, compete with other guys in this sort of way of, sports or, you know, whatever, trying to look cool.

Jayson Gaddis: yeah. So that’s a little bit of history about me. And I’m currently a dad and a husband, and I love being married, and I love my kids a ton.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. So it sounds like you had a, a pretty typical experience for the American male growing up. And, yeah, your, the lack of exposure to knowledge on how to have healthy relationships and maybe chasing some of the wrong things or some of the things that didn’t matter as much as you thought they did. So, yeah.

Dean Pohlman: And now I just want to know, like, what are your what are your where or two of your favorite books right now. And so of.

Jayson Gaddis: Gabor Motta’s Myth of Normal.

Dean Pohlman: Okay.

Jayson Gaddis: Or which is a really good book on health and wellness and it’s incredible. he’s definitely one of my mentors, and he’s been on my podcast a few times. His the core message there is that when you want to belong, you’ll trade.

Dean Pohlman: Your.

Jayson Gaddis: True authentic expression to belong, and that will actually create health problems for you. so a lot of people think that the normal is, a health book. I think it’s a relationship book.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: Anyway, that’s that’s one of my top ones. I’m currently reading a book called Quit.

Dean Pohlman: Okay.

Jayson Gaddis: Which is the power of Quitting Things. which is so antithetical to.

Dean Pohlman: Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Jayson Gaddis: So of the guys who are like, no, never quit, always persevere and push through, right? And of course, it’s written by a woman who has the wisdom to quit.

Dean Pohlman: yes.

Jayson Gaddis: And the willingness to quit. anyway, I’m getting a lot out of that book right now. I’m not I’m not done. So I can’t say it’s like my favorite or anything, but it’s it’s definitely serving me.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. Insert joke here about not finishing the book on quitting. So sorry. so the for me, I think a really great question to start with is where do men tend to mess up in their relationships? What are the patterns that they routinely engage in that are detrimental to their relationships?

Jayson Gaddis: Did the biggest one the single biggest, I think fucked up that guys do over and over again is they, think they know what they’re doing.

Dean Pohlman: Okay.

Jayson Gaddis: And that means if I think I know what I’m doing in yoga or, you know, relationships or money or whatever, I won’t read anything and I won’t learn anything, because why would I learn or need to learn anything? Because I already know what I’m doing right. And that is the that’s the biggest mistake guys make right out of the gate.

Jayson Gaddis: and those guys typically have really short term relationships. They have relationships that aren’t very fulfilling. They have relationships that are.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: Win, lose. I win, but you lose. They compete. They, try to have, like, find the hot girl and have good sex. Thinking that that’s somehow. And then they perform. They get stuck in performance thinking that’s somehow going to get them what they want. But. But, you know, the wise men, the guys who are really humble enough to learn that they, they have something to learn, I guess humble enough to know that they have something to learn.

Jayson Gaddis: We’ll just read a book or listen to your podcast or be like a shit. I don’t know what I’m doing. I should ask for help. I should go to therapy or get some coaching because I’m kind of stuck here.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, yeah, that makes total sense. I think we’re, Yeah. So in your book, you talk about four stages. So it sounds like first stage is recognizing how you don’t know everything when it comes to relationships. And then, I’m in the phase right now where I, I’m, you know, I’m learning, but I also don’t know which lesson applies to which situation.

Dean Pohlman: So, like, it’s almost very hard for me to naturally have a conversation because in my mind, I’m like, I feel like I’m going through like, it’s like a test in a way. I’m like, which lesson applies here? What do I say here? What am I supposed? So, yeah, I’m trying to, like, implement, what I’m learning as I go, which, sometimes frustrates my wife because she’s like, just just be emotional, you know, just like that.

Dean Pohlman: And beer. Yeah. I’m like, I don’t I if I do that, I think I’ll, you know, I don’t want to. Yeah. So, yeah. I think it’s so interesting that, you know, you guys just straight up don’t know how to feel like unless you’ve actually taking the time to practice that or you. I think a lot of people just have it.

Dean Pohlman: And they grew up in, you know, they grew up in environments where it was encouraged to express what you’re feeling and to be able to, you know, to safely have a range of emotions instead of just happiness. But for a lot of guys, you know, whether by societal norms of male behavior or because of the environment that they grew up in, they don’t know what they’re feeling.

Dean Pohlman: So, like if you ask a dad, just like, how are you feeling? He’s like, let me think about it. Let me think about how I’m feeling.

Jayson Gaddis: Or he says that stock answer I’m fine, I’m.

Dean Pohlman: Good, I’m good. Yeah. So, yeah, for for me, like, realizing that you don’t think about what you feel. You just how you feel. You feel, right. You can’t, like, think about what you’re feeling. You just have to be able to intuit what you’re feeling. That was, it’s a. Yeah, but but difficult to do.

Jayson Gaddis: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Especially if you grew up with a dad like me. You’re in a family like mine. And so many men where we’re, as boys, trained to not feel cause feeling on the playground and being the kid that’s crying is weak, and you’re going to get paid for another bullet. And I didn’t want to get made fun of or bullied, even though I was made fun of and bullied.

Jayson Gaddis: you know, for being sensitive.

Dean Pohlman: And.

Jayson Gaddis: Etc.. that’s there’s a big cost for feeling for boys, depending on the environment, whether it’s a sports culture or a church or, you know, just school. it’s it’s too bad because there are still so many boys.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: Being taught to be tough and not look gay or not look feminine.

Dean Pohlman: Or.

Jayson Gaddis: Whatever. And it’s like, no, no, no. Like, okay, well, if you want to shut down your emotions, your, your boys emotions, no problem. Just understand the downstream consequences that as an adult who’s going to be completely in the weeds in an intimate relationship, he’s going to be fucked. You’re just handcuffing him so that by the time he’s 25, 35, 45, when he gets married, his his partner is going to be incredibly frustrated with him.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. And I think what’s what’s I think what’s really interesting about the situation you’re talking about right now is that most guys who grew up that way, they won’t recognize that it was an issue, right? They’ll say that like, oh, I had like a really good, I had a really good childhood. Like my, my, my mom was, my mom was there a lot, and my dad was there when he wasn’t, when he wasn’t working.

Dean Pohlman: And, you know, and they, they kind of justify it. They, they logically justify. And this is my experience, too. They logically justify, you know, I had I had a really good childhood and, you know, my parents did the best that they could with the time that they had. And, and it’s not that you’re it’s not that you’re like, you’re saying that you missed something and then, like, going on a crusade, after your parents and, like, you didn’t give me, you know, you didn’t help me with my emotional intelligence, but there has to be.

Dean Pohlman: And and there’s also, you know, there are much worse things then than just just not having, emotional security, in your home environment. But, yeah, it is still something that you have to deal with and it’s still something that negatively impacted you. And so, yes, it might not be as bad as some other things, but it’s still something that you have to point at and say, oh, okay, this did have a negative impact on me, and I do need to do something about it, rather than just saying rather than just excusing it.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah.

Jayson Gaddis: Totally. I mean, the guys for for the guys listening that, you know, like I had a great childhood or I don’t, you know, I don’t remember or whatever. I’m fine. I’ll it doesn’t it kind of doesn’t matter. Your body remembers, and all you need to do is look at how your performance slash results are in your intimate relationships as an adult.

Jayson Gaddis: That that speaks volumes and, like, attracts like. So you’re you’re you’re attracted usually the perfect person to trigger you into all of your unresolved stuff. So if you think you had a great childhood, it’s like, well, think again. your nervous system has a different memory, which is the true memory, and it’ll get activated and awakened in a marriage or a long term partnership.

Jayson Gaddis: And that’s great. So that you can grow and develop yourself. But if you want to be comfortable and you want to not have any pain, or you want to just sort of coast along, then yeah, it’s I don’t recommend intimate partner ship.

Dean Pohlman: yeah. I can’t remember what I was reading, but I read something recently that said that your marriage is a very good mirror into your overall.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, your.

Dean Pohlman: Overall health and. Well, and it might’ve been your book, your overall health and well-being, you know, so guys, on the outside, they can be, you know, maybe they’re professionally they’re doing well, maybe they look a certain way and they look healthy. maybe they’ve got some kids, got some great photos. they’re friends, but if they’re struggling in their marriage, then in all likelihood, they’re really not doing as well as right.

Dean Pohlman: Appearances.

Jayson Gaddis: Say, yeah, and then they’ll go into shame about that. And a lot of men don’t want to feel shame or be with shame or even be seen in shame. So they’ll posture over the shame and that will look like defensiveness and guarded ness and blame, self-blame or other blame. it’ll be someone else’s fault. Or it’ll be, you know, you’re such a piece of shit or whatever.

Jayson Gaddis: but the wisdom of shame is to show us that we have more to learn and that we’re out of integrity with ourselves, and we are comparing ourselves to a fantasy or some ideal that’s, you know, we haven’t earned yet, and we gotta do the work and do the reps to get there.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. And, you know, to this point, I think we’ve talked a lot about, information and we’ve talked a lot about, understanding why some of these problems exist. So, you know, for people, for men who deal with shame. And this is, you know, I definitely do. I initially I had a podcast guest on, Namecheck, its founder of Roan.

Dean Pohlman: And, he, I asked him what was like the number one, what was the number one thing threatening men in their health right now? And his answer was shame. And my initial response was, oh, that must suck. If you have to deal with shame and I was so dissociated from it that I was like, no, that’s not me.

Dean Pohlman: And in reality, you know. Yeah, every time I think about, what’s like, what’s wrong with my relationship, why am I not more successful with my business? why don’t I have more time to. Why am I not doing these things to, elevate my physical health? Like, that’s all shame. and, you know, I, it’s.

Dean Pohlman: How do people go about dealing with shame in a healthy way? Yeah.

Jayson Gaddis: It’s a good question. I mean, I think shame is we have to first reframe shame, define it and reframe it. So I define shame from one of my mentors is, it’s the perception that you caused more harm than good to yourself.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: you’ve done something that has more disadvantages than advantages. behavior in action. And so let’s say a guy a classic one is a guy surfing porn and hiding it. And of course, he’s hiding it because he feels shame he’s not out about it. He’s not posting on Facebook and Instagram and surf porn today. And, you know, for obvious reasons and if he’s married, he’s definitely, like, keeping it under wraps because of the potential consequences that he doesn’t want to deal with.

Jayson Gaddis: Right? So it’s again, very understandable. This one’s white. Why men hide here. but shame can be like, so if I’m if I’m surfing porn, I feel bad because why do I feel bad? Why? Why can’t I just surf for and feel good? Well, I feel bad because there’s so much stigma around it. And also, I’m, comparing myself to, I think I should be porn free.

Jayson Gaddis: I think I should be some saint and never kind of have these little boundary violations. Then when I compare myself to an ideal that I can’t live up to, I’m going to feel shame. So that might be better to lower the bar, for yourself and be like, okay, apparently I can’t not use porn yet. I’m not there.

Jayson Gaddis: But maybe I can start cutting back and reeling that behavior in and, setting goals actually around this. And then I feel better about myself. I don’t feel ashamed. I feel like, okay, I went from every day to two days a week, and that was my goal. And I am hitting my goal. How do I feel about myself?

Jayson Gaddis: God, I feel actually good about myself. I don’t feel shame. and then eventually, maybe it’s zero times or zero porn.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: You know, that’s that’s just one example. But we have to do things to change our behavior, to feel good about ourselves. Usually.

Dean Pohlman: so, so porn is one example. I’m just, you know, that’s new. He’s not my dogs. Never jumped in the chair before. So. Pawn’s one good example. what are some other examples of, I do what do we call these addictions? Do we call these coping habits? What’s the what’s the term here. Yeah.

Jayson Gaddis: Good question. So with with porn it might be an addiction. It might be just a compulsion. frequent use for example. I define addiction as anything that starts to disrupt my relationships. so another example though, let’s just say just to try to keep it even more, simple. Let’s say you want to be a better lover in the bedroom with your partner, and you’re, for whatever reason, you feel shame because you lose your erection.

Jayson Gaddis: you can’t please her in the way that she wants you aren’t having enough sex in your mind. You think you should be having more?

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: And you’re blaming yourself in some way, so you’re going to feel shame. Like if you’re, again, think you should be somewhere other than where you are, you’re probably going to feel shame. same with money, same with health. If I think I should do yoga just like you, Dean, I’m going to feel shame, right? I’m just going to feel shame.

Jayson Gaddis: I’m just be like, genius. I’m never going to be like Dean. I feel so ashamed. Like my body’s not like him. I can’t I’m not as flexible as him. Like I can’t hang in there as long for as long of a class.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: I’m not doing my exercises like Dean’s telling me to. I feel like I feel bad about myself, which is shame, right?

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: So I got to stop comparing myself to you, and I got to be like, okay, Dean’s an ideal that one day. And because. How long’s Dean been doing yoga? A long time. Well, okay, cool. If I do it for five years, maybe I can be like Dean, but I’m going to have to commit. No, no, I’m going to have to practice daily or three days a week or whatever it is.

Jayson Gaddis: And as I get real with my goal, I might again, I can reframe the shame and it can. It motivated me to set goals. Now and start changing my behavior so that I feel better about myself.

Dean Pohlman: and so, so part of shame is to avoid comparing yourself, to avoid setting an unrealistic picture, unrealistic expectations, and then instead, coming up with more realistic goals based on where you are. And then, you know, and I’m just filling in the blanks here, but maybe some sort of self-love or gratitude practice that allows you to commend yourself for, you know, where you are rather than where you want to be.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah. Let me say it this way. So shame is like feedback, right? If I if I’m comparing myself to anyone, thinking I should be farther along, I’m probably going to feel shame. And that’s just feedback. I’m like, the feedback is, yeah, you should feel bad as long as you’re comparing yourself to a fantasy or an ideal.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: So how do I accept myself right now? Well, I have to look around at my life and be like, well, do I accept myself right now? Do I like how I’m showing up? Do I now? I always ask two questions every day. Do I like who I am and do I like how I am? I so, do I like who I am in the morning?

Jayson Gaddis: Like, you know, I ask myself this every day and do I like how I’m being, how I’m showing up for my life? if the answer is no, there’s probably some shame and I need to, like, reorient, like, okay, well, apparently I need to, set more realistic goals. I need to, Yeah, maybe it’s a gratitude practice.

Jayson Gaddis: Maybe it’s just, Look, I’m. I’m going to practice accepting me right now, given my limitations, but I’m going to every day, I’m going to take one step. And that one step helps me appreciate my effort. And so, so many of us got praise for the end result, as kids. And this is what it really bad parenting is.

Jayson Gaddis: Praise your kid for the end result. Don’t praise him for the journey. That’s bad parenting. Good parenting is praise them. Acknowledge their effort over and over more than the outcome.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: And then we train adults to feel the same way we like. We like ourselves because we’re we’re efforting. We’re working towards something versus I hate myself. And then when I reach the goal, I’m going to somehow like myself.

Dean Pohlman: yeah. I mean, that’s the that’s the thesis of grit. is a grit. No, it’s it’s a Carol Dweck mindset. Oh, yeah.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah. Growth mindset. Yes. I love that book.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, I read that book and I was like, Will you read this wifey? yeah. I don’t think I asked her hard enough. That’s another question that I had. So like for someone who. Yeah. And I think men, or whoever, I think people tend to attract opposites. Yeah. And so it’s very unlikely. I mean, I’ve seen some people who do have this dynamic where they’re both like, really into self-development.

Dean Pohlman: but usually it’s, it’s one part when one person is really into it and the other person is not. And so in that, you know, and I’m assuming that the guys who are, you know, involved in your well, I guess I can’t assume. So for the guys who are in relationship school, what how much of them are there because their partner’s reached a point where they’re like, I’m out.

Dean Pohlman: If you don’t fix this versus guys who are there because they’re like, I want to be better. Like, I, I really don’t like the way things are going and I want to improve this.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, well, you’re talking about the two things that I think motivate men is one is there’s just the desire to be better. And then one the other one is pain. Right? pain, shame, etc. is like like I feel terrible about how I’m showing up and I want to fix it.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: Which I think are great. Both are great motivators. I don’t know if I, I don’t know that I have the stats on that, but I would just say it’s it’s probably it’s it’s both. I’ll just say that, the men come here because they’re in pain and other guys are just like, hey, I have a good marriage and I want to be.

Jayson Gaddis: I’d be in a great marriage.

Dean Pohlman: so my so my question from that then is, how do you guys who are in the relationship school, who are really interested in this development, even if they’re not interested in the self-development, but how do they have how do they bring their partners into it, not bringing them into like the actual lessons, but how do they get them on board?

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, with with the work. With the work. Yeah. Because it’d be really difficult for you to just do that on your own and then not have the conversations with your partner. So how do you. Yeah. How do you get your partner into that if they’re not as interested.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah. And by the way, I have a semi chapter in that toward the end of the book about this, which is how do you enroll your partner into relationship work or getting on board with repairing after conflict. So first of all, it’s it’s it actually you can have a good relationship where one partner is going to therapy and reading books and doing all the work and, coming here to the school or whatever.

Jayson Gaddis: And the other partner isn’t, you can’t do that. But the person that happens when the person who’s not quote into personal development, they’re a quick study and they just they take suggestions easily. They’re receptive to feedback. They have their own ways of getting to the end result. For example, I was talking to someone yesterday who’s been married a long time and he said, my wife doesn’t do.

Jayson Gaddis: Basically, she never apologizes. She never, takes ownership for anything. But the very next day she’s applied what I was wanting her to do and she’s just doing it. so that kind of thing can work.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: I don’t think those relationships are as deep as relationships were. Both people. Or at least invested in a couple key areas of the growth stuff like you don’t have to be into personal growth, like as of high value, but in a marriage or a long term relationship or as a parent, if you want to be a good collaborating parent, you do need to be into just a couple fundamentals.

Jayson Gaddis: Taking responsibility for your part in a fight, saying, yep, I did that thing that hurt you. Understanding impact on the other person, that my behavior sometimes impacts you. And that’s that’s a bummer for you. And I see that I do that sometimes. and the willingness to, like, clean up the mess which I call repairing, which is really what my book is about, is how do we how do we get back to a good place as a team?

Jayson Gaddis: And if I’m taking responsibility and you’re not, I can’t we can’t get back to a good place because you’re saying it’s all my fault all the time, and I’m the only person that takes responsibility. That is just going to be a very resentful marriage, and it’s going to eventually not work. so as long as the other partner, they don’t have to read books or be in a growth in development, but they do need to do a couple of these fundamentals, so that the marriage or the partnership can thrive.

Dean Pohlman: and, you know, that brings up something that I, remembered from reading your book, which is this a lot of, men included. But everybody, they have the the outside in approach to fixing things, which is, you know, instead of instead of being the change instead of I’m like Michael Jackson, like, be the change you want to be.

Dean Pohlman: the song is. But instead of, being the change you’re looking at the situation and thinking, okay, if you just change or if like this just change, then everything would be fine. And instead it’s the inside out approach and starting change with yourself. So it’s recognizing and then maybe you can talk more about that, more about that versus I think what most of us tend to do, which is the the outside in.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, I think one of the biggest relationship killers is asking our partner to be different than who they are. You partnered with this person for a reason, and, you know, I would trust that reason. And it’s usually a to mirror back your own limitations and so that you can work through them. something to that effect. so outside in is yeah, you need to change.

Jayson Gaddis: And the other person usually feels judged and criticized on the receiving end of that.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: Inside out is what you’re saying is I’m going to be the change. I’m gonna inspire you by being I’m going to live an inspiring life. I know I’m going to work on myself. And hopefully you’ll be like, damn, you are so fulfilled over there. And you’re like, on the move. And you’re always developing and growing. There’s always someone you’re meeting and some podcast you’re listening to and and I’m inspired by that.

Jayson Gaddis: And I want to be like you, and I want to I don’t want to be left behind. I want to hang with you on this journey that you’re doing that’s inspiring someone, right? And then enrolling them, like helping them see that their highest value, whatever it is, work or the kids or friends or something can be met even more deeply if they would, do a couple key things that help the partnership.

Jayson Gaddis: Like if we have a if you a pair with me, for example, you’ll have less stress that will make you more focused at work. That will make you more money. let’s say we’re with a partner who’s a breadwinner, for example. we need to help them see how investing in the relationship work will help them get what they want.

Dean Pohlman: Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. so hopefully you start, you start taking, you start putting the initiative on yourself and then you do the things and that’s enough to inspire the other person.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah. And then once in a while we have to lay down the hammer. Like if we’re with a partner who just as a complacent person around repair or for example, again, I think, that’s the the most important thing in a, in a long term partnership is the willingness and ability to repair.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: That’s why I put so much focus on this part, this lover, it we might need to lay down the hammer and say, look, I don’t need you to be a different person. I need you to blah, blah, blah. I don’t need you to change necessarily, but I do need a couple of things. And again, it’s just like, I need you to take responsibility for your part when you mess up.

Jayson Gaddis: I need to understand that I’m impacted by that. if you need an apology, then you say, look, apologies go a long way for me. whatever it is that your nervous system needs to kind of let down and feel safe again and feel connected again, you can ask for those things and ideally, we’re in a partnership where our partners open to feedback and they’re like, okay, thanks for the feedback.

Jayson Gaddis: Shit, I need to step up.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: But if we’re with a deadbeat, you know, it’s there’s nothing worse than dragging a dead body up a mountain thinking you’re going to get to the the summit, on your journey, like, it’s it’s terrible for feeling for both people.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, I think I think a big reason and I can, you know, I can only speak from personal experience, but for me, I, I it’s it’s, I’m afraid of the, I’m afraid of the initial it my, my experience over time has taught me that I’m afraid of the initial reaction of bringing up something like, hey, I don’t like the way this is going, and I’m afraid of the initial reaction, but I’m always surprised at how different the, the response to it is a few hours after the initial reaction.

Dean Pohlman: So if I’m if I’m judging the effectiveness of me bringing up a, a, a prickly topic based on that initial response versus, okay, what does she do a few hours afterwards, though? Then I find that she I’m always surprised at how much, my wife can handle and, and how much, yeah. And how how it actually does it is beneficial.

Dean Pohlman: And I don’t know if you can speak to that, but I think guys are just really scared of, like, I don’t want to rock the boat, you know? I don’t want to.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So this gets into like a a fear of conflict, right. Or making it worse. And, I have a concept I call two shitty choices. So let me unpack that. Yeah. Which might help guys. So with the example you’re sort of talking about, let’s say I have an uncomfortable thing I want to say to my wife and I’m scared.

Jayson Gaddis: I have two choices. choice A is I speak up and I speak the uncomfortable truth. whether it’s feedback for her or an uncomfortable reveal about myself, about something I’ve been withholding, doesn’t matter. I’m just scared. Right. So choice A is, I’m going to. I’m going to say something. choice B is.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: I don’t want to say anything because I don’t want to make it worse. So those are our two choices. So choice A though the fear is we’re going to upset the other person so much that they’re going to, it’s going to, like, really hurt the relationship, possibly to the point of losing the person. So that’s the risk we take when we speak up is I might make it worse, rock the boat more, and she might or they might go away.

Jayson Gaddis: So that’s choice A. Choice B is okay, I’m not going to say anything. But meanwhile I betray myself and my own truth and integrity by not saying anything. I keep the relationship with them, but I lose the relationship with myself. Those are two shitty choices, right? Yeah, I lose, lose, lose the other person, or lose myself. and so most people sit on their ass and wait and kind of automatically by default, choose choice B, and if you’re going to have a great relationship, a great marriage choice is required over and over and over again.

Jayson Gaddis: And developing the skills and the courage, to to lean in to the discomfort and just do it anyway. Because why would you want to be in a marriage or a long term relationship where you have to, like, leave yourself behind to keep the relationship and like, not be who you are? Like, what a what a fucking miserable life.

Dean Pohlman: yeah. So like, this is part of a broader theme that I’ve encountered in self-development, which is logically, the answer is very clear. But emotionally, it’s hard to get the logic to just like, what if there was like I mean, just imagine what if there was something that could, could instantly take something logical and you could convince your emotional brain of of whatever it is like, how much easier would life be if.

Jayson Gaddis: Oh my God.

Dean Pohlman: You know, so, like, you know, it’s logically easy to understand this concept of choosing between two shitty choices and choosing the one that has some potential. But getting to the point where you feel emotionally, more comfortable doing it, or more comfortable actually putting it into action and putting into practice. How do you do that?

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, I mean, that’s a great question. I think we have to get more resilient. Right? It it kind of speaks to if we if we continue to be scared of this and it’s very hard for us, it, you know, we have to have some self-compassion. Like clearly we grew up in a family or an environment where it wasn’t okay to be ourselves.

Jayson Gaddis: And so there’s a lot of we had a lot of reps keeping keeping it inside and not saying anything and just going along to get along. And there’s a groove, there’s a rut, you know, the myelination in the brain went towards self-preservation and keep the relationship. And let’s not rock the boat here. So we have to disrupt that.

Jayson Gaddis: And it does take, practice courage. And you’ve got to see that on the other side of every hard conversation is what you want. Yeah. Which is a more fulfilling relationship where you get to be yourself and your voice is included and your feelings matter. And and it might not be with that person might turn out that the reason you’ve been withholding is because, yeah, they’re going to get really upset and they do get really upset in the relationships over.

Jayson Gaddis: So what? There’s another person down the road that’s going to actually receive all of you. And I want that for you. You know? I want that for everybody listening. so it’s it’s like yeah. Mindset coupled with like reps doing the uncomfortable thing like and doing hard things in general, like doing cold plunges and doing yoga and doing, asanas and doing whatever is hard every day, so that we get we get more resilient where we’re okay with hard things, like, I’m not I’m not afraid to be uncomfortable, you know.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, that’s a great point. so another question I was thinking of is, you know, at what point do you decide to bring up at what point do you decide that a topic is worth bringing up? Like what are the things that you’re just like, oh, she didn’t put this away. I’m just going to let it go and practice and practice some grace here and like, not comment even though it bothered me.

Dean Pohlman: I’m just going to not talk about it versus there are things that you’re like, okay, this is like, this is really annoying me now, and I need to bring it up. Like, how do you because if you just brought up everything like that would be exhausting. And I don’t think that would be a total recipe for a good relationship.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, yeah, this is an important point. yeah. When someone is like, you’re asking, do we fight over the little thing, every little thing, and bring up every little thing, every little complaint or not, because we’d just go in circles. And I think that’s a really good point, that it’s not necessary to bring up all the little things, because it’s just when you partner with someone and you get past the honeymoon stage, you start to learn that, wow, I do actually have some complaints about this person.

Jayson Gaddis: They do some things that bother me. and then you have to decide which ones of those things are worth bringing up. and for example, in my family, my wife is neat and very clean and organized, and I’m kind of messy and disorganized and I’ve improved. She’s asked me to improve and I have improved, but I’m still not where she’s at, and I never will be because I don’t care, but I care about her feelings.

Jayson Gaddis: And so if I leave my shit all over the place, expecting sort of mom to pick up after me because that’s why I’m messy is because when I was a kid, my mom did everything for me. and so I had to learn how to, like truth in a marriage. It’s like, well, I have to learn that my mom, my wife is not my mom picking up after me.

Jayson Gaddis: And so I’ve stepped up my game. But it ain’t perfect. but that doesn’t ever really create a fight in our marriage. we fight about more and way more important things than that. like finances or like, what are we doing with our life? And or how about how you treat me when we’re under stress and how I treat you like that’s way more important.

Jayson Gaddis: am I empathizing with your feelings? Do you care about my experience? You know, the listening to her and deeply understanding her and empathizing is way more important than if I’m neat or messy. and vice versa. So, yeah, pick bigger things that really matter, and get very good at working through those things.

Dean Pohlman: what would be the formula, in terms of how would you express that to your partner in a way where it’s received well, because you could probably do it in a way that says, like, you never pick your shit up. You’re so messy. Pick your shit up, which is the which is the not good way to do it.

Dean Pohlman: So, like, what’s the what is the is there a, a framework or.

Jayson Gaddis: just I’ll tell you what my wife to and, and it, she never even like what was so cool about her as she rarely asks me to change. She’ll just say how she’s impacted so she’ll. This is a really good. The formula is basically share how you’re impacted by the other person’s behavior. Okay. And it’s simple. Like when you do blank I feel blank.

Jayson Gaddis: So when you leave your shit around the house, her second part of the sentence was I feel stressed. It creates stress for me.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: And I don’t want to create stress for my wife. And she actually didn’t say, can you get your shit together or can you start picking up your shit. She just said, look when you do this it’s okay. It’s just I feel more stress and I feel more responsible and I don’t like that feeling. And I was like.

Dean Pohlman: Shit,

Jayson Gaddis: I don’t want to have that impact on her. So I started slowly changing my behavior. Yeah, right. Trying to step up my game. Yeah. Now it could be. It could be more direct, though. You could say, hey, when you leave your stuff all over the house, and I feel stressed, and I. And I would like you to work on that.

Jayson Gaddis: It would be cool if you would be just a little neater in these areas. I’m not asking you to dust. I’m not asking you to, like, sweep and mop and do all those things. But I do like if there’s pee on the toilet seat, please. Just, like, take care of that. That’s really upsetting to me. Yeah. you know, just some basic like.

Jayson Gaddis: Oh, right. Okay. Yes, I can do that for you.

Dean Pohlman: I think it’s so interesting that your wife obviously found this very natural. And I don’t know if she ever had to ever be instructed in how this is. Well, for my experiences, I don’t know how to do it. Like, I don’t know how to bring up, Yeah. You know, like, I have to learn how to do it, but for her, she just does it perfectly.

Dean Pohlman: And I’m like, oh, that’s how you do it.

Jayson Gaddis: I it’s funny, I feel like the one that’s always learning. My wife’s kind of a natural at this relational stuff. And I’m, I’m the one usually like trying to figure something out.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. So, like, you know, that makes me think that I, I, I grew up in a house where we just didn’t complain about each other. We didn’t really bring things up. and it showed it was most apparent for me when, a couple things. It was most apparent for me when I was being, you know, criticized for something by by my wife.

Dean Pohlman: so if she was telling me how to how to do something in particular or if I was, if she was trying to help me with something. Oh, don’t try to help me with something. That’s just that’s like just the worst for me. So, like, I just grew up in this atmosphere where to question someone’s ability to do something or to act in a way that implied they were not capable of doing it yourself themselves was like, whoa, okay.

Dean Pohlman: This is this is like dangerous territory. And I just learned never to do it. So, you know, when when my wife does complain to me and even now, I like it’s it’s, it sets off a, deeply in grand fight flight freeze response. That was. I didn’t even have a choice. And and creating. It’s just something that I inherited.

Dean Pohlman: you know, and so I’m, Yeah, that’s something that I, I really struggle with.

Jayson Gaddis: Can I, can I give you a suggestion there?

Dean Pohlman: I was going to ask, but. Yeah. Go.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah. so cool that you’re aware of this and that it has its roots prior to meeting your wife, which usually for, a lot of guys. A lot of guys, by the way, have a criticism button.

Dean Pohlman: we’re.

Jayson Gaddis: Sensitive to not doing it right or being told we need help with something. It’s like there’s a trigger there for a lot of guys. But, you know, for me, it was because I grew up with a critical father, right, who criticized my my actions. And so I was like, all right, really braced. now when I feel like I’m not doing it right or something like that, I’m like, so you could say, you could just say, honey, I’m having that experience where I feel criticized and judged for how I’m doing things, and I, I can feel myself getting really defensive.

Jayson Gaddis: and, and I’m not going to defend myself, but I can just feel that, that feeling coming on. I just want to fight. So you’re naming all the things that are true, which helps you feel seen and known and what’s actually occurring. But then you don’t defend yourself.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: Right. You don’t, you just don’t do it. You just say you’re about to, you say oh I really want to defend myself, I want to attack, I want to like fight back here. I want to say leave me alone or back off or whatever. The actual, you know, true feelings are for you. and that that will help her get to know, like.

Jayson Gaddis: Oh, right. I hit that button. Deny Dean.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: That that’s such a button for you.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah.

Jayson Gaddis: And then she can be more sensitive, and then she can also, be curious about you because she’s not going to feel attacked by you defending yourself.

Dean Pohlman: yeah, because I think I’ve. I’ve reacted to it enough to the point that she is extremely sensitive to it. And so she holds back a lot because she’s like, I’m not allowed to complain to you because when I do, right, you know, and I don’t want that for her. so it’s, I mean, I recognize that it’s on me to have a better response to that.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. but it’s really hard just to to bite my tongue and, just because. Because my because I just freeze. I, I recognize that in that situation, it in that situation, I just freeze. I’m not like, you know, I’m not responding. I am holding back anger and I am holding back my fight response, but I’m I’m freezing instead in that situation.

Dean Pohlman: And so, like, she’s saying it and she’s explaining her frustration, but I’m closed off to it. Right. And so it’s like it’s just a really yeah, I wish I don’t know what I’m I think I’m just so afraid of that. Well, for me, I know what it’s rooted in. I it’s it’s a fear of abandonment. Like, for me, it’s like she is complaining about me.

Dean Pohlman: She doesn’t like me. She’s going to leave me. So, like, that’s what happens though. Like, that’s where my that’s where my, my emotions go to when I’m being confronted about something like, oh shit, I’m going to like, she’s going to kick me out or like, I’m going to, I’m going to lose the kids. Like, that’s where my that’s where my head goes to.

Dean Pohlman: Even though.

Jayson Gaddis: Do you tell her that in the moment? Are you are you so frozen you can’t tell her that?

Dean Pohlman: I think we’ve had the discussions before. Like I’m a huge proponent of couples counseling. And, we still have a bi weekly appointment. we did a with a weekly appointment for a long, probably maybe a year. And, I think that was a topic that came up. And, so I think she knows about it, but I think for me just saying like, hey, like I want to hear what you’re saying also right now I’m just going through that experience that I feel like you’re going to, you know, abandon me.

Dean Pohlman: And, you know, one time I remember I have this really, we were arguing about. I’m sure it was child related. Right? It’s probably baby related of some sort. And I remember, like, her being really upset with me and her going off in one direction, and, and it reminds me of the part of your book where you talk about one partner wants space in the situation and one person person wants to reconcile and connect.

Dean Pohlman: And so my wife is the one who’s like, just give me 12 hours and I’ll be fine, you know, like, she’ll be she’ll be mad at me, won’t talk to me, and we’ll go to sleep. And then like at 2 p.m. the next day, she’s like, how are you? I’m like, what the hell just happened? and for me, I’m the one who wants to reconcile.

Dean Pohlman: And, and so, we had this moment, this instance, I can’t remember when it was, but we had this argument. She went off on her own, and I said, hey, like, I just want you to tell me, like, you’re not going to leave me, right? Which sounded so ridiculous to her. She was like, what? I’m like, that’s where I go.

Dean Pohlman: That is where my head goes. Like, when you do this to me and then like, go sit on the other end of the couch, I feel incredibly insecure. I feel like you’re going to abandon me. Yeah. And she was like, no, I’m not going to leave you. Yeah, we’re just disagreeing. But. And for her, it was so like, it was just so matter of fact that she was like, how could you think that?

Dean Pohlman: But for me, like, this is my experience. Whenever that argue an argument happens, I’m like, oh shit, I’m losing this person, you know?

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, this is so I really appreciate you saying that. I’m like, more like you. I’m more of that kind of anxious partner. My wife’s more of the withdraw. so back to your example. and this is, by the way, I call this, like, the fight below. The fight, you could, you know, whatever the fight was about, it’s sort of like there’s an issue.

Jayson Gaddis: Let’s say it was about money or the kids. And then there’s what happens when she withdraws and you want to talk about it. Right. And that’s that’s like another layer that a lot of people aren’t aware of in working through conflict and getting back to a good place. And it’s essentially an attachment dynamic. Right. it’s like how your nervous system is wired in relationship under stress.

Jayson Gaddis: You want to go toward and and work it out. And she wants to go away.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: Because she probably grew up in a family where relationships weren’t that reliable and she was kind of on her own, and that felt better. So she doesn’t see, you know, withdrawing types don’t see that relationships could be resourcing. And actually, it’s faster to to work through the thing to talk or to be connected. Anyway. yeah. If the I like what you did in couples counseling, where it’s like being able to say that, hey, I really want to respond to you, but I’m, I’m having that abandonment fear come up or I feel very scared or anxious or whatever.

Jayson Gaddis: My activation is high right now about that. and then she can you hopefully have compassion for that. And you don’t need to necessarily do anything other than say it. But but here’s the thing. If you don’t keep working with that in the moment, she’s going to feel dropped about whatever her complaint was. right. So she feels like, oh, I bring up sometimes something hard.

Jayson Gaddis: And Dean goes into his fear thing and now I feel even more alone.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: So both partners, she has a responsibility to keep you in mind when she’s wanting to withdraw. You have a responsibility. Ability to keep her in mind when you’re wanting to talk.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: Or hurry up and, you know, talk it out and get back to a good place like we both have to. And this is one of the hardest things to do, honestly, under stress in a partnership is keep each other in mind when your own triggers come up.

Dean Pohlman: yeah.

Jayson Gaddis: But that’s the practice.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. It’s much harder to talk about something when you’re not activated, as opposed to waiting until it activates and then trying to have like, or working through that situation, it never it doesn’t it doesn’t work out well, but you don’t want to bring it up when things are going well because you’re like, hey, I think it’s going well right now.

Dean Pohlman: Like, let’s, I don’t want to bring up this, this topic that’s going to lead to. So, so lead.

Jayson Gaddis: More disconnection or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

Dean Pohlman: So I really like, you know, the idea in your book of, you know, the book is called getting getting to zero and zero being the level of tranquility relationship tranquility where, where I know I’m sure you have a better description for it than that, but.

Jayson Gaddis: It’s getting back to a good place. Yeah.

Dean Pohlman: So getting back to a good place. so I love that you explain, conflict as I love that you point out that conflicts drain you. Yeah. So, like, understanding that conflicts that are unresolved that you just you that you, you feel like you need to you feel some sort of inclination to do something about them, but you ignore them and focus on something else instead, and then understanding that those conflicts are draining you from I mean, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually.

Dean Pohlman: I think understanding can conflicts in that light makes you much more motivated to I got to I got to get this thing figured out. I got to actually do something about this because every minute that goes on that I don’t do something about it is it’s just draining me and making me more, less effective at everything else in life.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah. And you have a slow cortisol drip going on, and that low grade stress of not getting to zero, not getting back to a good place, actually is taking years off your life. You know, the governments who are, you know, some of the leading researchers in relationship education. there are researchers. Amazing. when I interviewed them, they said that couples that know how to work through conflict live ten years longer than couples who don’t.

Jayson Gaddis: Wow. That’s mind blowing. And if you’re living in a constant state of recurring stress because you don’t know how to get to zero as a couple, that’s taking years off your life. it’s really, you know, the downstream effects are significant if we don’t figure this out. Just like if you’re in a job you hate for 10 or 20 years, that’s taking years off your life.

Jayson Gaddis: You know, if you’re in a toxic relationship that’s taking years off your life. So I hope we’re motivating somebody here listening to learn the art and skill of working through conflict so that you can get back to that place of ease and flow and connection. That’s that’s where we all want to live. But you’ve got to earn that.

Jayson Gaddis: It’s not given to you. We didn’t learn this in school. Your parents probably didn’t teach you. They had shitty role modeling, whatever. It’s like. Well, fine. You learn, then you’ve got to apply yourself together and learn. And then then you get the rewards.

Dean Pohlman: yeah. I mean, that’s that’s motivation for me. So, if helped to definitely at least one person is reminded. so I don’t ask a ton of male specific questions on this podcast. Oddly enough, I ask about, I ask about male specific in terms of things that males construct commonly struggle with. But a question that I’m thinking of is to, to to what extent are to what extent should men feel responsibility as, as a man to, to take charge of, to take charge of this, the responsibility of improving the relationship or recognizing, in your book, you talk about being the relationship, author.

Dean Pohlman: as opposed to the victim, I guess. To what extent or is there, you know, is there something specific to being a man that men should take the initiative in this?

Jayson Gaddis: I don’t I don’t think so. I don’t think it matters what gender you are. ideally, both people become relational leaders so that they can have a kickass, extraordinary partnership. for life. That’s ideal. but if, one of you is not, and both. You’re both sitting around like someone needs to lead the relationship to a new place.

Jayson Gaddis: And if it’s the man, great. If it’s the woman, great, I don’t care.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: I think there are certain levers for some men, especially if, if men are like Christian men, for example, are like it’s the job man’s job to lead the family right.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: yeah. It’s kind of my, that’s, and that’s.

Dean Pohlman: That’s where the theme has showed up for. And what I’ve read, that’s where the theme shows up. A lot more of the man leading the relationship. Yeah. Whereas in a lot of the, the non-Christian circles it’s like whoever fine. Yeah.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah. Yeah. So I think whatever your religious views are spiritual views, it doesn’t matter to somebody take the lead. And if if a man wants to feel some pride in being that person, great. but, again, it’s hard to lead a relationship without a copilot with a person who’s not wanting to be a co leader sharing power.

Jayson Gaddis: I prefer the model of share. We share power, my wife and I, versus I’m leading the family. And I have more power than her because I make the money or something like that. Or she has more power than me. No, a good, secure, bad ass partnership is one where two people share power. equally, there’s a lot of equity.

Jayson Gaddis: Feels fair. It feels good to both people.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. So, that that actually brings up and I, I totally agree with that. at least as it applies to, to my relationship. and that’s also what my wife believes. You know, she she looks we have some friends who who have a, I don’t know what you call it. Husband lead or male led, marriage.

Dean Pohlman: And, because they have, what we just said, strong Christian upbringing. And so that’s what they, they are used to, or that’s what they those are the values they’ve embraced. but for for her, she wants, you know, she wants an equal place at the table. And so one thing that we kind of struggle with when, you know, when I was first starting the business, I didn’t make as much money as her.

Dean Pohlman: She was a she’s a doctor, physical therapy doctor. her doctor to physical therapy. she has a lot of certifications. She’s been doing a lot of school. And so she made more money than me for a long time. And then at some point, I started making more money. And then she stopped working to take care of our our babies.

Dean Pohlman: And she’s gone back and forth between, you know, I have a three and a half year old and I have a one year old. And so she’s gone back and forth, between work during that time. but a lot of are struggles now or under, a consistent theme in considering the struggles that we go through is the financial or lack of financial balance.

Dean Pohlman: She feels, you know, she she feels very, conscious and, and like, and, and unequal in terms of, in the, in the, in the financial contribution to our relationship. And so that, that causes her to have reservations about, you know, demanding what she wants or like getting her opinions heard, or so I’m wondering, you know, in that situation, how do you help couples with that?

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, it’s I always say it’s not about money or sex or whatever you’re fighting about. It’s all about how you fight, how you work through the differences. So there’s there’s no formula. And I would I would challenge any formula that someone has on how to get through this. It’s are we going to collaborate to solve this together?

Jayson Gaddis: Where both people feel understood, cared for, respected and acknowledged for how they are, how they’re holding the finances? So it’s it’s and then from that place, the two of you can solve any problem together because you’re a team. But if you’re if you’re in opposition, one person’s feeling undervalued, another person’s feeling more valued, or there sort of criticism or there’s some kind of resentment occurring, it’s it’s not gonna it’s gonna be very hard to solve problems from that place.

Jayson Gaddis: So it’s all in how you talk about it, how you work through it, how you listen, how you, really get her world around what it’s like to be her as a part time working mother.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: What is that like? And what’s the impact? And and given that I’m earning more, And you want to do x, Y and Z. Yeah. What is this like for you? And what is it like for me that I’m in this position and if when two people really commit to understanding anything’s possible.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. That’s, that’s, that’s one component of the first few pages that I read is I think I even underlined it because I was like, well this is a really powerful statement. But that’s just it talks about the difference between a someone who was the victim in the relationship and someone who is the the author in the relationship.

Dean Pohlman: And I’m flipping through the pages now, but the victim, I’m paraphrasing because I can’t find it yet, but the victim is somebody who says it’s not. The victim is someone who says, I mean, essentially that it’s it was so well, phrase that I’m not even going to I’m not even going to paraphrase it, paraphrase it. I’m just going to I’m just going to find where I underlined it and then say it.

Dean Pohlman: During conflict, the victim in us says, take my side, I’m right. Where is the author and says, help me see my side. I’m open to being wrong. Yeah. Bingo. Yeah, yeah. Like for me that was like the that was a statement that I was like, oh okay. Like that. That’s the thing. So instead of trying to get person to understand your point of view, you’re trying to get a more complete picture and trying to understand what’s your, you know, what’s your perception of all this?

Dean Pohlman: Because I’m not getting it because I’m not able to, like, I’m not understanding it.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah. When my when my wife, you know, for years I would defend myself and she’d say, I don’t feel understood. I feel I don’t feel like you’re understanding me. And I’d say, yes, I am, which was such a waste of time and I so I changed the rules to I don’t understand you, honey, until you say you feel understood.

Jayson Gaddis: And that’s chapter 11 of my book, love. You listen until the other person feels understood. It’s a skill to listen in such a way that your partner is like, thanks. Yeah, I feel like you’re getting it. I feel like you’re getting me.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: And of course, you want them to do that for you. Yeah. Should be there, right? It should be equal.

Dean Pohlman: yeah, I remember my there are couples therapist had us go through that, and it was probably one of the more uncomfortable things that I’ve, that I’ve done in the moment. Because you’re setting aside your own ego, you’re setting aside your own perspective. And because it’s difficult, because you can’t it’s, you know, the object in that situation is to be incredibly objective and to set your feelings aside, your perspective aside and say, okay, I’m going to understand your perspective as completely as I can and then be able to say it back to you.

Dean Pohlman: And, when you do it, you’re like, okay, as you’re doing it, it’s like, oh, this is so uncomfortable. Like, okay, I’m just going to forget about all of my, you know, all of my feelings and yes. Oh, you mean you don’t want me to think about my, like, what I’m going through? And, But, like, at the end of it, right?

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. Yeah. But, like, at the end of that, you know, at the end of it, you’re like, okay. And then obviously, yes, you have to do it for both of you, because if you didn’t, then you’re just one sided. That would just be the the biggest blue balls of, of all time. Oh my god. yeah. Yeah.

Dean Pohlman: I’d be like, I need a day by. Right. so yeah. it is, it’s a super, it’s a super, powerful, and so simple. Right. Just like, let me understand your perspective.

Jayson Gaddis: yeah. And I don’t understand it until you tell me. I understand it.

Dean Pohlman: yeah. Yeah, that’s a that’s a good that’s a good metric. Like, how do you know if you did it? Well, yeah. Well, I feel like you understand me now. Yeah. Yeah. awesome. so I have I have one more question that I wrote down. and it has to do with, this is a, this is actually one thing.

Dean Pohlman: One thing that I really like, is your question. You question the effectiveness of venting. Right. And because, I’ve seen this in I think I did, I I think I had a solid six months in my therapy where it was just me showing up and like venting about Marissa in like some form or another. Not the entire time, but like a lot of it was devoted to me.

Dean Pohlman: Just like venting. Right. And so as a result, my wife, like, resented my therapist because, like, you just show up and complain about me the whole time. I’m like, well, I mean, I just talk about what I’m feeling and my marriage is important to me. So I got to talk about that. but in your book, you you say like, it’s actually not a good thing for you to go vent to your friend and then have them tell you.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah, you’re right. Fuck her. Because that doesn’t mean like, oh, yeah. so I wonder if you can speak to that a little bit more.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah, yeah. And this is where the, the male like, men’s work and men’s groups are pretty key. I always say to my, my male friends and the my wife knows this, my wife knows that every guy in my men’s group has her back.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: So if I’m in a bitch about her, they’re listening, but they’re like, I got her back. Also, I got your back, Jason. But I got her back, so. And I want what’s best for both of you because they love her. Right? And so they’re like, I’m not going to let you sit here and run your mouth about your wife and hope she’s wrong about something, or I’m going to challenge you to help see your side to to how you’re actually part of the problem here.

Jayson Gaddis: like when I coach people, I let people vent for like five minutes because it’s off gassing. It’s like, you just get it out, get it out. If you’re bitching and complaining out. And now let’s get to work, which is what is your part of this problem? And I’m going to challenge and support the person to help them see what they’re not saying about themselves, so that they can go back and take ownership with their partner rather than, yeah, that’s fucked up.

Jayson Gaddis: Like you were saying, you know, like that’s just don’t go anywhere.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. And it makes it feel like you’re, to me, it’s also like you’re you’re just creating, it’s almost like lying by omission, right? You’re just creating another layer. another wall between the two of you. Because instead of expressing it to her, to him, you’re, you know, you’re just like, burying at someone else. You’re just burying it somewhere else, and you’re like, I’m just going to.

Dean Pohlman: I’m putting it in this box over here, and I definitely won’t. Even though it’s underwater, it definitely won’t rise to the surface. Right? Yeah.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah. The concept in the book is and this is not my concept, I didn’t invent this, but it comes from systems theory, which is just triangles that you triangulate, you know, I go to a friend, complain about my boss. Me and my friend are in cahoots about, you know, I’m the victim, my friends, the rescuer of my boss is the villain.

Jayson Gaddis: That’s a triangle. And those are very stable. They don’t go anywhere until someone challenges the whole system and says, actually, I want to get empowered here. I want to see my side. I want to take responsibility for how I co-created this dynamic, and I want to get out of it. I don’t want to blame anyone because blame feels bad.

Jayson Gaddis: and I don’t need to be rescued because I’m not a baby. I. I’m like an adult here, and I can I want to be supported and challenged to face my problems.

Dean Pohlman: that was another part of the the victim, the victim section where I was like, oh, that hits, where you said any form of blaming is, I don’t know if it was any form of blaming, but the the overall idea was blaming is a form of victimization. Yeah, right.

Jayson Gaddis: 100%. It’s one of the roadblocks to reconnection. It’s just feel free to blame away. But you’re not going to get anywhere in life.

Dean Pohlman: And you know. Yeah. Because instead of accepting the responsibility, you’re like, you’re putting that responsibility on someone else. You’re you’re effectively saying, I’m not responsible for this. It is this person’s fault. And therefore I don’t have any agency in this situation and can’t do anything about it.

Jayson Gaddis: That’s right. Winless.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. Yeah. the last question that I had was, personal question again. But for sometimes when I’m getting, when I’m getting maybe selfish or, or frustrated with, with the situation, I will, I will or I’m like, just not willing to give more grace to the situation. I’m not willing to let things go and like, you know, and like and and put my ego on the shelf.

Dean Pohlman: It’s it’s it’s when I feel like I’m the one who’s making more concessions or like, what advice would you give? Because I think someone who is in like the, the position that I’m in where they’re, you know, they’re really into self-development, and they’re making. I can’t say making more of an effort because I think that’s incorrect.

Dean Pohlman: But I think if they’re making the effort in a way that, you know, you’re thinking in terms of reading books and trying to apply things that you’re reading in books or courses or podcasts, and you feel like you’re the one who’s making that effort. And then and then putting your ego on a shelf more than the other person.

Dean Pohlman: you know, that leads to some resentment and contempt, and I don’t what’s like, what’s the what’s the best way to to deal with that feeling?

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah. you know, if I’m your partner, I just want you to bring that up with me. Hey, this feels this is starting to feel a little out of balance. I don’t, and but I would say I would always preface I use very spacious language when I’m fighting or arguing or trying to get to resolution with someone.

Jayson Gaddis: And it’s language like, I have a flawed memory here, but this is kind of how I see it. my memory’s not perfect. I don’t I’m not saying I’m right. I lead with things like that, and I like almost little mini disclaimers.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: because a lot of people get very fixed. Right? I’m right. You’re wrong. No, I know exactly what happened yesterday when we were fighting. no, that’s not what I said. I know exactly what I said. Like that’s a complete waste of time. You got to say. Look, I don’t know what I said, but my flawed memory thought it was this.

Jayson Gaddis: But I’m totally open to being wrong. Now, that tells me I’m a willing opponent, slash participant, slash collaborator.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: So you could just say, hey, I, I, I’m starting to feel like I’m making more concessions when we’re in a conflict than you are. I don’t know if that’s true, but that’s just what it feels like over here. Can we talk about that?

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: I feel like I’m putting more effort in. I don’t know if that’s true, because you probably think you’re putting a ton of effort in it. Just feeling, something’s feeling off and unfair to me. I don’t know what it is. Can we talk about that?

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: Can we look at that together? Can we stand side by side and look at that issue over here together?

Dean Pohlman: Yeah. So, so that response and then also I think some of the other stuff that we’ve gone through is coming to the conversation or coming to the the discussion on the conflict and showing that you are willing to admit your wrongs in this situation, and that you are open to revising your the story of that, of what happened instead of coming in and, you know, saying you’re wrong and I need an apology.

Dean Pohlman: But coming in and presenting it in a way that you’re like, I want to accept responsibility for this. I’m willing to admit, you know, what I did wrong in this situation. And then being able to present, and make that part of the. Yeah.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah. If you’re saying leading with that, I’m pretty receptive.

Dean Pohlman: that’s an awesome. that’s an awesome response. So, one of the thing I wanted to ask about, and this is the last thing I’ll ask about before I get into the part two, is when I spoke with you last week, you talked about the relationship school. And, you know, for me, I was like, I’m actually really interested in this myself.

Dean Pohlman: And I thought it might be, I don’t know, I thought I might be like a 30 day guided course. And it’s actually nine months. And I was like, wow, that’s a long time. And then I thought about, well, I mean, if my relationship is the most important part of my life when it comes to my overall health, then maybe nine months is worth it.

Dean Pohlman: So, yeah, I just wanted to ask about, selfishly, I kind of wanted to ask about that. and, and yeah, just if you could talk a little bit about, the relationship school. Yeah.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah. So the relationship school we have, you know, it’s just we’re an education organization trying to empower people to get this part of their lives dialed. We primarily focus on the intimate partnership because that’s the hardest for most people. Once you figure that out, you can do just about any relationship. Well, and I made it a nine month course because, partly in conjunction with the school schedule, fall semester, spring semester kind of vibes.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: But I also was tired as a therapist many years ago, having people come in and out of couples work or individual work kind of just not making progress, not making progress that I knew was possible. So I started leading men’s groups, mixed gender groups, couples groups. I started experimenting with longer and longer commitments. So I did a men’s commitment.

Jayson Gaddis: That was six months. I did a couple of men’s leadership trainings that were that long. and I saw a massive transformation, and I wanted to push that. I didn’t want to go to a year, but I wanted to push it. So I did nine months, based on the school calendar and what I saw was just extraordinary in terms of when someone starts and when someone finishes and like you said, you know, if I’m going to go to the gym, am I going to and I make a 30 minute, 30 day commitment versus a nine month commitment?

Jayson Gaddis: you know, there’s two people, let’s say, who’s going to be more fit, the nine month person or the 30 day person. It’s pretty obvious. Yeah. because there’s lasting transformation. You know, it’s not like a cool. I did it for 30 days. Now I can go back to my life. It’s. No, I got it. I got it set for nine months now.

Jayson Gaddis: I don’t want to go back to my life. This is how I want to live my life. yeah. And so the course is called Relationship Mastery. And it’s it’s really about mastering, knowing that it’s a kind of a lifelong commitment. Right. As I’m going to work on mastering this for the rest of my life, because that’s what mastery is.

Jayson Gaddis: But it’s going to it’s the stepping stone. It’s going to get you started on that path.

Dean Pohlman: how much time does it take per week?

Jayson Gaddis: Anywhere from 3 hours to 6 hours, depending on how serious you are. because there’s practice calls. There’s a lot of a lot of it’s recorded, not live. So do it your own pace. And then there’s live components like group coaching. there’s office hours. There’s different things where you can get more interaction. but the people that practice and do practice with people they don’t even know are the people that get results.

Dean Pohlman: Yeah.

Jayson Gaddis: The fastest and the biggest.

Dean Pohlman: Gotcha. Yeah. Sweet. All right. Time to move on to part two. so these are the questions that I’d like to ask all of our guest. And this is, you’ll see what they are in a second. So, what do you think is one habit, belief or mindset that has helped you the most in terms of your overall happiness?

Dean Pohlman: Oh, so.

Jayson Gaddis: any kind of self reflection, self-awareness, practice, which I’ll put meditation and journaling in.

Dean Pohlman: That, yeah, I am incredibly I’ve said this multiple times, but, if you can see it on video or you can hear it in the audio, Jason is probably one of the most relaxed, people that I’ve ever met, one of the most relaxed men that I’ve ever met. It’s an extremely, reassuring presence to be in, even digitally.

Dean Pohlman: And, Yeah, just based on my knowledge of wellbeing and stress management, I would have to say that you’re your, your meditation habit and your your, immersion and, not immersion, but your involvement in Buddhism has got to be like a big component of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. what is one thing that you do for your health that you think is overlooked or undervalued by others?

Jayson Gaddis: it’s what we’ve been talking about this whole time. relational health.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: People overlook this everywhere. And I think, not just our relationship with ourselves, but primarily how we’re connecting and how deeply we’re connecting with others, how much we feel seen and known by others, and how much they feel seen and known by us. is is major in terms of well-being.

Dean Pohlman: what’s the most important activity you regularly do for your stress management?

Jayson Gaddis: Exercise.

Dean Pohlman: Okay. What is the most stressful part of your day to day life?

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah. When I’m in my left brain trying to solve business problems.

Dean Pohlman: yeah. That reminds me of the concept of, like, trying to parent when you’re in work mode, you’re just like, right? Just doesn’t work. what do you think is the biggest challenge facing men and their well-being right now?

Jayson Gaddis: their own? The straightjacket of their own conditioning from early childhood till right now, how they’re told to be as a man, how they should be as a man, what you need to be as a man.

Dean Pohlman:

Jayson Gaddis: All that bullshit propaganda, is just holding so many guys back from being who they are.

Dean Pohlman: I know I we don’t ask us, but it’s the best way to start addressing that.

Jayson Gaddis: look in the mirror and say, raise your hand and say, I’ve got problems, and I’m willing to work on them.

Dean Pohlman: I love that. All right, well, Jason, thanks for joining me on, The Better Man podcast. I’d love it if you could talk more about relationships, school and, you know, your socials and other stuff, that people can follow you on.

Jayson Gaddis: Yeah. Thanks, teen. so I have a lot of demo videos I’ve been doing more like how to videos on YouTube. So that’s our Jason got us Jason all the way. you can check those out. And relationships. Fool.com is where our podcast lives. Blog. all our courses, training, certification programs and my book that Dean mentioned is everywhere books are sold.

Jayson Gaddis: Getting to zero how to work through conflict in your high stakes relationships.

Dean Pohlman: Cool. All right. Well, I really enjoyed this conversation. again, it’s it’s it’s really nice talking with you in general, so thank you for that. hopefully we can get you on again. We can have more conversations, but, Yeah. Thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing your your, in-depth knowledge and expertise.

Jayson Gaddis: You got it. Thanks, Dean. It’s been a treat, man. Been good hanging.

Dean Pohlman: Out. Yeah. All right, guys, I hope this inspires you to be a better man. I’ll see you on the next episode.

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